INTERVIEW WITH ROBERT DILTS
Aug. 30 1997 by Maren Franz, Greta Mildenberg and Roger Vaisey
Q: What is your vision for the newly formed Global Trainers and Consultants Network? (GTC)
ROBERT: The vision for GTC is to have a global network
of people who are trainers but also consultants and also
sponsors. I think a lot of the emphasis in NLP has been
on trainers and that has been great but has lead to some
of the problems in NLP where people go out and train,
but you can't train without sponsors, without material to be
developed. Its a little like music. You can have musical
performers yet if there are no composers and
organizations that promote or sponsor, it doesn't get out
there. Some of these areas have been the blind spots or
weak links in the dissemination of NLP. So the idea of
the Global Training and Consultancy Community is that
beyond the Master Practitioner level, it's not OK to just do
more and more NLP practitioner programs, and to get
into competition with people who used to be your friends.
My belief and my experience is that there is so much
more for NLP to do than it has done and if we can have a
network and community of people who can share that,
then the opportunities to bring NLP to the world and to
expand the applications of it can increase exponentially.
So one of the visions for it is, that there is an expediential
expansion of the ways that NLP is taught, used and
applied in the world.
Q: Would you say something on how you see NLP
expanding more in the world.
ROBERT: One of the things we do in the Advanced Training
is to have people not only work on presentation skills of
what we already know about NLP, but that they also work
on developing their own applications. There is a little bit
of history to that that comes from Todd Epstein and I. In
1982 there was a lot of fallout when Bandler and Grinder
were splitting up and people were already at that time
beginning to bicker over Practitioner Training. So we set
up the Dynamic Learning Center as a way of applying
other applications of NLP, in learning, in business and in
all kinds of areas. So what I envision is people starting
with 1 to 3 day programs or consulting applications that
explore or manifest a particular application of NLP that
could range from team building to leadership
development at a number of different levels, to areas of
healing, and spiritual healing. I mean there are just so
many different possibilities. I could go on for ever about
how many things could be done and have just not been
done so far in NLP. If we think that phobias and allergies
are the epitome of what can be done with NLP then that
is pretty short sighted. There is the whole area of
transcultural abilities and skills -of creativity and
innovation that is so important not only for people in
companies but also for individuals. So to me as I see it,
there are applications that are as diverse, as the different
people that are attracted to NLP. I was just even thinking
about this as I was looking at the people in our
Practitioner group at NLP University. The difference in
age, country and background of a pretty small group of
people in a way was quite remarkable, yet what was
obvious was that they shared something together. There
was a 20 year old musician from New York, a 60 year old
Japanese business man and they are sharing the same
kinds of language, the same kind of frames, the same
kinds of tools and I really think that these are same of the
things that NLP can bring to the world. So what the idea
of the GTC is to create an opportunity for that. and in
terms of the background of the GTC it is that to a certain
degree we are attempting to model the Health
Community Training. The idea of the GTC is that there
would be a post Master training, an investment that
people put in, to really go deeply into work with health and
healing-that we should have a directory a newsletter, a
not for profit organization and to do this in all sorts of
different places all over the world. And what happens is
that although people are very geographically spread out,
they all share a similar mission, a similar vocabulary, a
similar set of tools and that allows us on the one hand to
be able to make referrals to people who call in, because I
know I get requests all the time that my schedule is too
saturated to be able to fulfill whether it before someone
who needs health work, or for some kind of training or for
some kind of consulting with a company, so that's part if
it. There is another part that is a little bit difficult to
describe in words because its more of a sense that there
is a solidity that comes when you, for example, when we
had these health certification trainings that finished in
Denmark, Germany, Brazil and the US, there was a
feeling that there was a "We "around the world that was
much more than just here are some Brazilian people that
have just finished some new certification program. It's
rather "Now we are part of something and that something
has substance." And that for me is what the GTC is all
about. There are same other goals for the GTC. I think
that a lot of the existing NLP applications and models are
very American in their approach and I have the
opportunity to travel around the world and see what
people do, in different parts of the world with NLP and
how what unique things are coming out of Germany or
Brazil. I would like the opportunity for these things to be
able to be spread rapidly - a kind of NLP internet. But one
of the things that bothers me about the internet is the
chatter, meaning the superficial is as much present as the
meaningful, the sustenance. So part of the idea of the
GTC is to build this NLP network starting on a foundation
of people who have had a real commitment to NLP and
we have just finished as you well know, our first group and
the people who were in that group are people who have
been in NLP for literally years. Maybe there are a few
people who started and progressed very rapidly. I think
the thing for me that was very profound about many of the
people is that they have made 5 or 6 or even 10 year
commitments and that is very important for me. Its about
building the community on a foundation of people around
those who have all shared, not only the tools if NLP etc,
but also a really strong commitment and that for me is
where you get the quality control. One of the things that all
people who are trainers or have any professional interest
in NLP in the world, clamor for is something like quality
control, credibility, integrity. But the kind of things people
have done to accomplish that are sort of policing
organizations or arbitrary standards and as I think in true
NLP fashion the best way to do that is through role
models- is to have an opportunity and to have a place, a
network that is built and designed and co-created by
people who share that commitment. And that's what I
dream and feel that we have the opportunity to do with the
GTC. To wrap up at least the first answer, another part of
that vision is that we will have not only the people but also
the instruments to keep them together and events and
structures that give people an opportunity to contribute
into this global network so that somebody in Singapore
for example can create a vision program and get out to
someone in Brazil or Germany or Scandinavia or all over
the US. So that it doesn't just come from one source. My
strong belief and again my experience, having been
around NLP as long ashave, is that there is a creativity
that comes from that, that you will see innovations and
developments in NLP the likes of which have not been
seem before because there will be that kind of cross
fertilization. But in a strong way it won't be chaotic and
just dispersed and diffused. It will be for people who care
about it, who have the ability to assess the depth of
something. That's why a lot of the training we have been
doing that goes into that, has been focused on
assessment and how do you really know that something
works. How can you tell that somebody has done
something with a particular thing?
Q: What benefits will there be for trainers in the directory,
and what benefits will there be for organizations that use
trainers in the directory?
ROBERT: Well certainly for trainers in the directory firstly,
the most important benefit is that they will be listed and
grouped together with people who have the highest level
of training reputation and quality in the field. So it's a kind
of "Who's Who " of NLP. So there is a credibility of
reputation that will come from being in the directory. Also
the kind of things we are asking of people to be in the
directory is going to relate to what kind of specialities
they have so that there is not just this homogeneous NLP
trainer, or mythical NLP Trainer , but people who have
particular areas, who are doing projects, who also have a
history of working. They will get known to other people in
the field. I don't know how many times for example it
happens to me that I am in let's say Berlin or Paris and
somebody goes "Oh you know we are doing, my
company is doing" - they get a hit of NLP, and they get
enthusiastic and excited, and they say " Do you know
someone who is doing this? " and I go " Yeah well yes I'm
sure there's somebody around here, ummmm who is it-
Where do they live ? What was their last address?
There's this perfect person, but what is there professional
name" and so on and so on. So that having that directory
will start to crate the possibility of the right person being
linked to the right opportunity at the right moment. Its like
a resource guide. Also, the directory will not only be an
paper but also on disc and on the internet. So the other
thing is that in a few months it will be on the internet in a
way that people can access it from any part ton the world.
And that is another benefit. All the things we have been
doing in this past year we have not just thought of in in
terms of a booklet, but something on the internet and it
will be updated regularly. And we are looking for ways
that people will be able to update their own addresses.
You would have your own password. I don't know how that
would work as yet. The other benefit too is for people just
knowing that they are part of a community. We have
finished this first training with about 40 people. There is
one in the UK of about 60 people. There is going to be
one finishing in Berlin of between 60 or 70 people. So in
a very short order, say 6 months there will be 150 people.
And that's enough to make a community, that's all over
the world, spread from Asia to South Africa. People that
are coming to these different programs of course there
will be fairly large concentration in Europe and the US.
But that just serves to build the community. And one of the
things we know and this is important, because it is one of
the things we stress in the advanced trainings and are
part of the requirement of getting into the community, is
that these are people that are committed to networking,
to working together, to doing interesting projects and for
creating things. So its not just " Oh, I will have to look who
my competitors are" but to really use one and other as
resources and there are people who are committed to
doing that and there are people in this GTC that are
doing big projects, that are already looking for different
kinds of other people to help them. And I think it will open
the doorway for a new way of people working together in
the NLP field. We need a place for there to be a
community and it used to be and still is for people to
attend seminars. There was a while when there was
some conferences, but I think conferences and some of
the associations that did those conferences have
changed or transformed and conferences sort of came
and went as an opportunity So we are really looking for
something whose purpose is to create community, and
not just where the accidental by-product is to create
community. So I think that is another benefit for being on
the directory. Now the benefits for the organisations or
companies who use this are that again they will be able to
target people who have the background, expertise,
interest or mission in areas and skills ,so it's not just
flipping a coin and saying " Oh this person has a
certificate, maybe they'll do."- a sort of hit and miss. But
the idea of having a directory is that its going to give a lot
of information about the person and again the best
analogy is how the Health Directory has worked. We have
a picture, a mission statement, the background, the
degree, languages you know, all that people have, all the
relevant information that you need and there have been
times for instance- I can remember a couple of months
ago - somebody - this is the analogy to the health
directory - somebody called from Porto Alegre which is in
Brazil. They had just found that a close relative or
somebody had cancer and they wanted to know who
could help. What we could then do was to open this
directory pick out a few pages of people who seemed to
fit the profile, faxed them - of course on the GTC we will
have it on e-mail and internet - faxed them these pages
and they could make a decision right away. They were
able to get help that could really make a difference in a
timely way to this person who needed help. That's the
kind of vision of it. Its timely, its targeted and its with
people who can be guaranteed to have a degree of skill
and commitment. That's the idea. not just that somebody
has a little certificate on the wall .Its has a picture. You
can see them , it tells you something about their mission,
their history, something about their specialities. the kinds
of things we want to put in the directory are the sorts of
things we need to know in order to refer somebody into a
job that we couldn't do whether its a training job or
consulting job.
Q: These sort of jobs get more as people
understand the benefits.
ROBERT: Yes and I think there is the issue of fighting over
a particular slice of the pie, or making a bigger pie and
certainly the goal and vision of GTC is to create a bigger
pie. One of my analogies is the US stock market where it
just keeps getting bigger and you jeep getting a bigger
pie because you've got a synergy-you are actually
creating something more than it used to be . Its not like
you are over using a limited resource. You are actually
creating more resources rather than taking advantage of
or using up a resource. And so ecology is one of the
really important values of this.
Q: What steps does someone who wants to become a
GTC trainer have to take?
ROBERT: The first steps are to complete their basic NLP
training and hopefully, by the way , as people who are
members of the GTC members and know that they have
that quality. At this point as there are a lot of good trainers
who are not in the GTC or who don't have that opportunity,
I wouldn't want to say that people should limit themselves
to that. But part of one of the benefits of it is that people
can get a referral. I would say that people should
complete their basic training and then there is the GTC
base courses. One in the UK, one in Berlin and one here
at NLPU, and I'm sure there will be more in the future.
Part of the idea of setting these up is like a setting up the
health community training. We have them in a enough
places. People who are committed can go there. So
there's NLP University 400A and B course's and thats
part of getting into the GTC. Now there will be other
courses that will provide possibilities and we will be
establishing these and announcing these and I know we
will be doing 400Aand B next summer in 98. And then
again I'm hoping there will be places around the world
which will make more opportunities.
Q: I would like to ask two questions not necessarily
related to GTC. One is that you are known as being at the
cutting edge of NLP. What is on that cutting edge right
now?
ROBERT: Well I think there are some things that are
obvious and somethings that are less known. One thing
that is on the cutting edge of NLP is the book that just
came out called Tools of the Spirit, and I think that the
integration of NLP and Spirituality is certainly at the
cutting edge of NLP and a necessary growth of NLP. For
too many years it was absolutely dumbfounding to me
that for so many years people would say the NLP didn't
have anything to do with spirituality and yet the title of
NLP Vol.1 is "The study of the structure of subjective
experience," saying-" well if spiritual is a subjective
experience how could it not b part of NLP." Secondly for
anybody who has a commitment with any sense of vision
or mission. they have something spiritual that goes to that
level of depth. Everybody that I know and admire in NLP
and again whether they call that spiritual or not, that is an
element that attracts me to those people.
Q: I don't know Robert if you know that in 1988
Ragini Micheals came to Poona to see Osho and he got
to know NLP. He said that he wanted his people trained
in this. He clearly saw about the understanding of
subjective reality that it is not body and no mind, it's one.
ROBERT: Yes. Its kind of a funny thing because it seems
as if it should be the most ancient thing and in a way it
was the starting point of NLP. But its taken this long to
become the leading edge of it again. I think that is how it
is. Also other explanations of the so called higher logical
levels, Identity; I mean a lot of NLP techniques are what
we would call changes in behavior, changes in abilities
and as we move on to get into deeper levels of change,
more pervasive, more long lasting and ecological levels
of change, there have to be changes at the level of
identity and spirit. Some other things that are at the
leading edge of NLP are some of the things that we
started this year - the leadership conference which to me
has a very close interrelationship with GTC, you know the
idea of getting NLP trainers and leaders together and
looking into the future and building a vision that we follow
together, in the spirit of cooperation, in the spirit of
community and of mutual development. To me that is a
leading edge that is so leading edge that I can't yet see
where it is going. But again it is a funny thing to say that
the leading edge of NLP is at the area of cooperation
and working together rather than individualistic power
and personal mastery which is all part on NLP. But I think
the leading edge is to create a "we-space". Sometimes I
like to say that when I look at the development of NLP,
sometimes what I see is 2 renegades modelling 3 loners
- 2 outlaws modelling 3 loners: Erickson worked by
himself in his mysterious way and even Perls who talked
a lot about community pretty much was a loner when it
came to his work. And even Virginia Satir who did family
therapy - her mission was as an individual helping
families. So I think its just coming around now that we are
getting a sense of a modelling community, bringing
community cooperation, rather than the myth of the single
individual genius who goes out there and blazes the trail.
And again I think some of that comes from the American
pioneer archetype. I think that NLP is bigger than that
archetype. It's bigger than a whole lot of archetypes.
Some of the other things that I am personally doing if I am
representative of leading edges - some if it has to do with
stretching out into places where NLP hasn't been before,
like really on the edge of spirituality of - what I see is really
exciting is happening among the trainers here - it's not
just spiritual but so many different dimensions -chakras,
Zen, these other things all beginning to come together.
So how shall I put it - it's like a new unity - they are all held
in a complementary way because that to me is the
essence. I got into NLP because it offered the promise of
really being able to experience fully the richness of being
a human being in all areas and in all levels. That's what I
want. Not about doing the right thing in one way and
setting standards and excluding all these other things,
otherwise I wouldn't be interested in NLP. I was only
interested in NLP because I didn't want to have to choose
one thing over another and excluding everything. It was a
way to be able to accept everything , experience
everything but within a framework . Not in a chaotic
schizophrenic piecemeal way - but in a way that could
truly hold all of this richness. That's what characterized so
many of the people who were here in this first group to go
through GTC. That's one of the things that we all share:- a
great richness of background, experience, interests, and
an openness to receive another model. And I think that
along these lines , the other part of the leading edge of
NLP has to do with its history. As far as you reach into the
future you have to reach into the past - and NLP came
from modelling and its going to modelling. NLP started
from modelling and that will always be its leading edge.
What is new? Modelling is ultimately what NLP is about.
What is great is that as more and more people become
interested in applications of NLP they also become
interested in modelling. And I think that again modelling is
a gateway to the future. Its like to me a true NLP person,
they see someone doing something better than they do
so instead of being jealous trying to screw that person get
rid of them, fighting them - they model them. They go: "
Great. I can do that too. Then I grow - then that person
sees me doing something then - Hey, I am going to
model what you do". OK. its kind of like that sense of
growing together . I see that of all the people I've worked
with, like Judy, like Todd, Robert McDonald all of the
people, we grow by modelling things in each other and
you know I'm not the same person by any stretch of the
imagination that I was 10 years ago. That's because we
are the leading edge - we keep pushing our own edge
and when, as people grow, the field cannot help but grow.
And I think that that is also what is exciting about GTC. So
modelling is one and I think interest in modelling is
another - I foresee in the very near future there probably
will be a whole group of books on modelling which I think
is finally time that happened. Also - as you know I and
Judy are hoping to finish the encyclopedia of systemic
NLP. NLP is in a way too big of a field for any two people
to be able to encompass but our dream there , is that by
starting together, together creating something, it is an
encyclopedia that is a container for the great richness of
NLP, past, present and future. This will stimulate other
people who will say, "Well this is not in there, that is not in
there", and then it becomes like GTC, you collect enough
things together in one place, weave it together strongly
enough and then people can easily start adding bits. This
encyclopedia of NLP is epic. Judy and I look at it and we
are awestruck. Its awesome. And this is just what our little
perspective has put together. I foresee the day when our
encyclopedia is on the internet. It grows and grows and
as NLP grows, this encyclopedia will also grow with all
the cross links being updated. Someone is interested in
addictions, so they look it up on the internet and they find
this encyclopedia and as they begin to explore addictions
and NLP, there is suddenly a reference here to
cybernetics and then there is one over there for 12 steps
which leads to spirituality, which leads to - and then
suddenly someone is on a journey. One of the most
interesting things Judy and I have found is that just putting
together the encyclopedia, we have these journeys. We
start an entry and that leads to to think of something else
and something else and it really does show me that there
are worlds within worlds. So its not just creating a world
and I think that is the problem with the statement "
Creating a world that everyone wants to belong."
Everyone is always looking at the problem
presupposition in that statement. I think that the only issue
is creating worlds within worlds.
Q: One last thing. There seems to be a conflicting thing
going on in the world, as far as I see it. On the one hand
there is the ever increasing globalization of businesses,
bigger businesses world wide. And on the other hand
nations tend to be breaking down into smaller units.
Scotland, Palestine, the former Yugoslavia, and so on. So
there is a double thing going on here. How can NLP
address this?
ROBERT: A spot on observation. And what I think is
responsible for the dual development is that it relates to
the leading edge of NLP question. What is on the leading
edge of human consciousness, human development, is
how to create a global identity yet maintaining integrity in
ones own identity. The dangers of having this big global
identity is that you have a homogeny. There is no
diversity, no richness, no color, no difference - everybody
is the same - eg Microsoft, Mcdonald's, back to 1984, the
horrific vision:- everything is just a shade of gray. At the
same time the positive sense is of unity. And we even
address this in Tools of the Spirit because a lot of
peoples experience of spirit is unity, but if there is unity
where is individuality, where is uniqueness, where is the
joy of meeting someone who is different than you and
going " Oh Wow - that's fascinating, that's fantastic". And
that in fact, to a certain degree, the view of spirituality as
simply unity is for many people, death. You die and
everything is phewww. So life comes from distinction,
from difference. That's where you get integity. How do I
have my personal integrity as an individual being, if I am
just absorbed into this mass of grey. I think that part of it
is being able to sort out well, certain logical levels. First
become clear ,what is identity and how to have
self-referenced identity? I think that the big danger and
the reason we have wars and genocide is that people
have an externally referenced identity. " Well we are not
them." And yet paradoxically the worst thing to happen is
to get rid of that which you hate. By that I mean, I can
remember those Americans how were anti-communist.
What happens when there is no more communism worth
speaking about any more. You are nobody now. If
someone were to come up to you and say, " I'm an
anti-communist", its laughable. There's nobody to be anti
any more. It's bizarre to have that sort of an external
reference. I think that what NLP has a chance to offer is to
be able to sort out these levels of spirit from identity and
from beliefs. Most of the world is at the level of not being
able to sort out identity from spirit. One of the things NLP
has to offer is obviously all of the presuppositions of NLP.
I think my view of heaven would be a planet like ours,
living from the presuppositions of NLP. The map is not
the territory- people have posetive intentions - Everybody
has all the capabilities they need. All of those things and
having all of the tools to be able to express them , to be
able to solve problems in their own ways. Part of my
experience,-I was even talking to Richard Bandler a few
months ago where he was saying ," You know it's funny
that years ago NLP used to vi with Gestalt, Transactional
Analysis, etc, and now nobody wants these particularly. I
mean people are clamouring and fighting still over NLP,
and NLP trainings, but not over Gestalt etc." It's like what
the world needs in certain ways is what NLP has because
NLP has the ability to grow. It's the one thing that saves
NLP very much. It isn't a thing. What it is now- I mean what
Gestalt was 25 years ago is very similar to what it is now.
NLP is totally and remarkably different. And what it will be
like 20 years from now, I can only dream about.